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BigBonns wrote:

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Its interesting that almost every little scroat on the board has Grizzly losing to almost all animals but infact, science would deliver a completely opposite opinion.
Why?....because the Grizzly is a defensive Carnivore by classification.
Grizzly (Generics) have gone on record as having come off better with a vast variety of animals, which have included carnivores and Herbivores.
They are tactile, intelligent prodigeously strong with terrible claws and good jaws. A small one will defeat any dog or Wolf, while a big one can be a terrible foe.
A large one has gone on record as having beaten a Lion, Tiger, Bull, Ass, Ox, and is now considered a moderate predator of Black Bear.

Crocs are stealth predators of the waters. They do not do well against creatures out of their natural condition on land but have even come off the worst against Zebra on occasions in the water.
A Grizzly has huge claws and jaws with which to fight back, while a suprized half ton bear is not going to be pulled under easily....even if not fighting back.
A large Grizzly would crush a Croc on land but come away with clamp injuries from a suprize waterborn attack.
A Grizzly would not be a crocs normal prey. Thick hair and fat is not their usual comfort food, and getting struck by big claws, not something they would enjoy.

you are a joke! Please leave this debate to the big boys. So because most people said an 8000lb elephant seal would defeat a 1400lb bear you get the idea that bears are underrated? A grizzly has proportionally weaker jaws than most other carnivorous animals, and blunt claws which would not be able to inflict much damage to a large salty. It is also a far poorer predator than a similiar sized big cat

There are accounts of donkeys giving large grizzly bears a decent fight in the old pit fights.

Where do u get the idea that crocodile do not do well vs other animals out of the water? Sure they would prefer to fight in water but large nile crocodiles confront prides of lions.

Lmao, there was one account of a nile crocodile releasing a zebra after the zebra bite the crocodiles eye. This one bizarre and rare . There are accounts of cougars beating brown bears in fights, so I guess the cougar should be the one in this matchup not the bear. There was also an account of a nile crocodile killing a black rhino.


OMG! You are a dim witted fool! The bear stands zero chance in water and suggesting that it does is just plain laughable!

Bull !$++, a large grizzly wouldnt even be able to inflict much damage to a large salty. Grizzlies with there blunt claws and shorter canines and poor predatory abilities would not even be of a great concern to a large crocodile. If the bear tries to mount the crocodile,it will get dislodged by a death roll every time. Saltwater crocodiles use there tails as weapons so I would expect a bear to take a few whacks from the tail and then run away.

A big saltwater crocodile has a bite of 5000lbs. One bite and the bear is history. If you are honestly suggesting that the bear would only recieve clamp injuries from an attack than you need to get your head checked.

Wow I am sure the crocodile would be just terrified by the beard blunt claws. The bears blunt claws would be the equvilant to tickling a crocodile if we are comparing the crocodiles bite to the bears blunt claws. You are pathethic! You claim the bear only recieves clamp like injuries from a bite thats over 5000lbs but that a bears blunt claws would cause great injuries to a armored crocodile.

A bear would not be at all ready for an animal as armored as a crocodile. One tail whack from a salty would be enough to stun a bear and cause it to retreat.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7MuFDVEUro

Frank321 wrote:

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I'd favor a boar Kodiak island grizzly (312 kilograms) against an average saltwater crocodile on land (400 - 500 kilograms and 4.5 meters).

Tigerburningbright,

Lesser species of crocodiles would prefer to retreat into the water when confronted by an adversary, but that is not the case for the nile or salty.

Perhaps not everytime, but it's in their instincts to retreat to water when threatened. This is stated and shown in 4:30 of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smPhYXeXmhk&feature=related, the Nile in this video however hesitates in order to avoid the (adult) bull shark.

A saltwater crocodile is by far the most aggressive crocodilian.

I'm not sure if I'd say "by far," although I'd agree they're more ferocious than the Nile crocodile (Crocodylus niloticus [more likely than not the second most aggressive crocodilian]).

Now the rest of your post is simply underrating the grizzly; I believe you may not know how powerful these animals really are! Let's consider the matchup where I suggested the bear would win in the first line of this post.

You asked how a bear would maul a crocodile. First of all, crocodiles aren't made of steel and vulnerable to attack from a grizzly; they possess claws exceeding four inches in length and, while not the sharpest of carnivores, certainly not dull.

"Bears possess enormous strength, regardless of species or size. The strength of a bear is difficult to measure, but observations of bears moving rocks, carrying animal carcasses, removing large logs from the side of a cabin, and digging cavernous holes are all indicative of enormous power. No animal of equal size is as powerful. A bear may kill a moose, elk, or deer by a single blow to the neck with a powerful foreleg, then lift the carcass in its mouth and carry it for great distances.

"The strength . . . is in keeping with his size," describes Ben East in Bears. "He is a very powerfully built, a heavy skeleton overlaid with thick layers of muscle as strong as rawhide rope. He can hook his long, grizzly-like front claws under a slab of rock that three grown men could not lift, and flip it over almost effortlessly...." "... a brown [bear] ... took a thousand-pound steer a half mile up an almost vertical mountain, much of the way through alder tangles with trunks three or four inches thick."

Strength and power are not only the attributes of large bears but also of the young. The author observed a yearling American black bear, while searching for insects, turn over a flat-shaped rock (between 310 and 325 pounds) "backhanded" with a single foreleg. The bear was captured the following day in a management action and weighed 120 pounds."

Keck, Stu. "Bear Anatomy and Physiology." Bowhunting.net. <http://www.bowhunting.net/bearhunting.net/bear2.html>





Where the variable "s," is equal to mass of the boar kodiak and the variable "m," the mass of the 120 pound black bear. The variable "x," is the original weight the black bear lifted with its paw. Plugging in these values we get the equation and solution:



This would allow the bear to attack the crocodile's vulnerable underbelly and cause serious damage. Now of course there's a possibility the crocodile could death roll. But still, the bear could quite possible push it down and not allow the croc to do this. A crocodile is said to roll two to three times per second (12.5663706 - 18.849559 radians per second). A 450 kilogram crocodile that were to do this would possess an angular net force of 5654.86677 - 8482.30155 newtons (1271.26462 - 1906.89725 pounds of force). The bear could lift with 1026 pounds of force with one paw, and would than almost certainly match, if not exceed the crocodile in force in pushing down; with equal, opposite forces there is no acceleration, and thus the crocodile does not roll, and the bear's paws do not move. This would allow the bear to maul the crocodile's belly with its claws and jaws.

While the crocodile does also have formidable armor to protect itself, it certainly is not invulnerable to attack from above. Bears are capable of tearing through thick soil and tree bark with relative ease in order to get at insects and the like, one could eventually harm a crocodile from above. I could similarily say that the crocodile's teeth are dull and it would only manage to get its jaws around the bear's fat layer and fur, but this is obviously ignoring the areas were they are formidable, for example their tremendous bite force and ability to thrash and role violently. I'm not too sure what I haven't replied to yet, but, at the moment I'm rather tired and will continue to view this debate.

EDIT: my use of edits in this post is being done so that I may perfect the "Tex," feature I used in my post so that you all may see the mathematical equations and formulas. Unfortunately, the color and background of this forum makes it a difficult task.

As for big bons. I dont feel the need to bother awnsering your laughable posts. I would consider your credibility to be about zero right now. I thought you would have learned his lesson on the bear vs elephant seal thread, but i guess I was wrong. A large elephant seal will trash a bear and so will a large salty.

An average male salty is around 14.5 feet long and 400-500kg. But this is not a full grown male salty. The average maximum length for a male saltwater crocodile is 16-17 feet. A 16 footer will weigh around 550-600kg. A 17 footer likely 700-725 kgs. However larger crocodiles than this do exist. Steve irwin caught two crocodiles that were 17 feet long that didnt include the 5 inches of there tails that had been bitten off! Dr craig franklin has caught an 18 footer on the cape york pennisula. Adam britton described a crocodile called the bollo river station giant that is over 18 feet long! With continued protection we will one day see 19foot long crocs in australia. In india there is a national park that has a 23 foot long crocodile! This park also has 2-3 additional crocodiles that are estimated at around 20 feet! I would think that the largest kodiaks can get to around 1300-1400lbs.

A crocodile would prefer to fight in the water no doubt. But saltwater crocodiles have a reputation for going far out onto land and attacking campers in tents, and large bovid animals on land. Frank... did you watch that show? It was a young crocodile! That is why it ventured that far out of the range in the first place! As he was to young and to small to challenge the other older and larger males for territory. A sub adult crocodile will be far less aggressive than a dominant adult one.

Niles can be pretty aggressive, but I dont think you could compare on to a male saltwater crocodile. Just from watching videos of the two crocodiles being captured, you get a sence that the salty is the more aggressive animal.

I never said a crocodile is made of steel. But being that a grizzly has blunt claws and shorter canines and a lb for lb weak bite force,I doubt it could inflict all that much damage on a crocodile. The bear does not have an efficient killing bite like a big cat, and tends to bite and shake which will not be very effective vs a large crocodile

Frank a rock is a stantionary object that doesnt fight back! Not to mention the bear usually takes some time to flip large roks over. It doesnt just flip them over in a second. It takes some time and effort. A crocodile will be struggling and thrashing wildly, which would make it extremely hard for the bear to flip it over without getting bitten or tail smacked.

Would the bear really even try to flip the crocodile over? I really doubt that a bear would try this... Grizzlies have never encountered crocodiles before, and do not have the predatory instincs that a big cat does. Big cats dont even try this techinque on small crocodiles and big cats have lived with crocodiles for thousands of years, and have superior hunting instincts. A stationary rock that a bear uses alot of time to flip cannot be compared to a bear instantly with one output of strength holding down a thrashing crocodile that is defending itself.

Frank, there is no way a bear could stop a larger crocodile from death rolling. Even if the bear flipped the crocodile over [ which will not happen] the crocodile could simply death roll the bear off it. You can compare a bear ability to flip a rock, to a thrashing crocodile that fights back. Even if the bear could pin the crocododile down on its back[which it cant] the crocodile could still tail whip the bear.

Frank a crocodile has a bite force over 5000lbs. Blunt teeth dont matter when you can crush bone! A bite to the head and a death roll or thrashing motion would cause horendous internal and blunt trama injuries. A bears fat would not help or save it from a 5000lb+ bite force .

The crocodile is to much in this encounter.

Frank321 wrote:

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Tigerburningbright,
I'm afraid the concept of the "average, maximum" that I've heard in the past is not something I take as a realistic figure, and would seem to be more appropriately labeled as an above average specimen. I take the average male saltwater crocodile to be 450 kilograms and 15 feet long. The largest crocodiles recorded, in Orissa, India, obviously can grow to be longer than 20 feet, but again, these are very rare (according to Dr. Adam Britton, about as much so as a seven-foot tall human).

Niles can be pretty aggressive, but I dont think you could compare on to a male saltwater crocodile

I posted that video to show that the crocodile's instinct was to enter the water, as the narrarator stated, but it refused to do so because of the bull shark. My point was never to show that it was "scared" or equivalent. Saltwater crocodiles can't be that much more aggressive than Niles', this trait largely depends on the individual crocodile; afterall, there aren't many saltwater crocodiles as ferocious as Gustave.

But being that a grizzly has blunt claws and shorter canines and a lb for lb weak bite force,I doubt it could inflict all that much damage on a crocodile.

Again, grizzlies don't have blunt claws. If you insist that this is the case, than I'll just have to demonstrate that this isn't the case with a few photos:









All of the injuries (even the last; confirmed to me by Warsaw) were acquired in fights between another bear. Now could an animal with relatively poor weaponry, and particularly, blunt claws, deliver these kind of injuries? The answer is obviously, no. The images of the claws I posted also show the sharpness of a grizzly's claws. If you continue to suggest the claws' of the bear can't injure the crocodile, than provide some evidence to support this; there's already a good deal going against this contention. Their canines are also sharper than those of the crocodilian; which are built for holding firmly.

Frank a rock is a stantionary object that doesnt fight back!

Yes, but it possess both a mass (volume and density) and an acceleration (gravity), giving it a net force pushing it down to the earth (also known as its weight). A crocodile possess the same exact thing, except it can exceed that of the rock because its net force is also due to itself, and not just gravity. If you look at my calculation, than you'll see a 689 pound kodiak bear with both paws, can, at least approach (which is all that it needs to do), if not exceed the net force of the rolling crocodile in order to cause it to stop its rolling. You can more fully understand this concept through this picture:

Would the bear really even try to flip the crocodile over? I really doubt that a bear would try this... Grizzlies have never encountered crocodiles before, and do not have the predatory instincs that a big cat does.

Perhaps not, regardless, the bear can attack with other manuevers. They are members of the order carnivora, and possess killer instincts (The Great Bear Almanac suggests this is even the case for the giant panda).

Even if the bear flipped the crocodile over [ which will not happen] the crocodile could simply death roll the bear off it

Several adult men can often prevent crocodiles from rolling. Considering the average adult man weighs 180 pounds, and it generally takes about seven men to accomplish this, this would produce a downward net force of 5604.48 newtons. A kodiak bear can match this (again, view the calculations; this is infallible. Your statements emphasized with constant exclamation points are not). A bear can produce 689-pound bear can at least approach the figure of 5604.8 newtons. Note the "solid brick of muscle," appearance of this skinned kodiak:

You can compare a bear ability to flip a rock, to a thrashing crocodile that fights back

Yes you can. Both have masses and accelerations, and forces in certain directions. This is what scientists call physics. Nature does not instantly change its laws when a

Blunt teeth dont matter when you can crush bone! A bite to the head and a death roll or thrashing motion would cause horendous internal and blunt trama injuries.

First of all, crocodiles don't kill by "crushing bone." They do so by drowning their prey. Another reason why crocodiles have difficulty killing large prey on land.

The crocodile is to much in this encounter.

Something tells me you aren't as confident of a crocodile victory as you'd like us to believe, as otherwise you wouldn't have created this topic and asked to debate it or try to win us over through statements as "crocodile too strong!" without any real reasoning or sources to support it. You're gonna need more than that son.

Dont get me wrong an average salty is around 450-500kg and 15 feet long. I never disagreed with this. Just that larger crocodiles do exist. You cant dispute the fact that steve irwin caught two 17 foot long crocs in the same river! I suggest you get "In search of a super croc" it shows irwin catching two 17 footers in the nesbit river. A 20 fooot long croc is a giant. Probably similiar to a 1300-1400lb brown bear. But in recent years there have been 18feet + long crocs in australia, so I would assume that there could possibly be a few in australia. But that they are extremely rare.

The only reason I even mentioned it was because people were using 1000lb bears, which is way far away from the
average.

A crocodile would prefer to fight a bear in the water. But niles have been known to confront lions over kills. And salties attack cattle on land. And anyway how is this relevant? I would think a bear would probably retreat from a large crocodile aswell. So both animals would prefer to get away from each other, but in this fight we are assuming that they will fight with nothing holding them back.

Grizzlies do have blunt claws! First off those arent grizzlies, but coast brown bears. I am not saying that the claws cant cause damage, as the force alone behind the strike would be immence, but they dont have the sharp hooks like polar bears of big cats. I will conceede that some are sharper than others.

Where did I say that grizzly bears have poor weapondry? In an encounter vs a big cat the grizzlies relatively blunt claws would work fine, and might actullay be an advantage as they are longer. But vs a tough skinned crocodile, I would think the blunt claws would not be able to penetrate deep at all.

Lmao how am I suppossed to provide evidence? Do you want me to go and get bear claws and by crocodile skin and do an experiment lol/

A grizzies claws can not cause significant injury to a croc, unless the crocodile is flipped over which will not happen. The canines also are shorter and there bite force lb for lb weaker than a lions or tigers. A crocodile has a bite force of over 5000lbs, blunt teeth mean nothing. A bear is also alot less protected from a bite related injury than a crocodie.

A crocodiles mouth is built for a crushing and powerful strike. Most large body animals are killed by drowning. The crocodile bites the prey which causes massive injuries and then they drag the prey under and drown it. Either way an animal that is bitten from a crocodile and escapes will have heidous injuries such as broken bones.

A bear doesnt just instantly roll a large rock. It takes time for it to roll a large object. The bear doesnt roll the rock in one swift motion. Usually it will roll it up a little bit ad then procceed to slowly roll it over. The time it takes to roll the crocodile over while leave it vulnerable to an attack. And the croc could just reshift itself itself to a better position.

Yes several men can prevent small exhasted jaw restrained crocodiles from rolling. Watch steve irwins shows, large crocodiles take many many people to restrain. Usually the crocodiles jaws are restrained by multiple ropes and the crocodile tires itself out and then the men jump on. Not to mention the men put blankets over the crocodiles eyes which relax them. A crocodile that is being attacked will not relax its attack Please do not use this example again. I can post pictures of entire groups of men being barely able to restrain exhausted and jaw restrained 15 foot crocodiles. Steve irwin did not even attempt to have his team restrain the crocodile named goliath that he had caught. There were numerous men and they could have tired the crocodile out. But he considered it to be two dangerous.

I never said crocodiles kill by crushing bone. Now u are just being a prick. I am aware that they clamp on with there jaws and drown the majority of their prey. A crocodiles bit can crush and break bones, but that is not how they kill animals. If the crocodile bites the bear and rolls either the bear will have broken bones of a huge chunk of lacerated skin. Either way it would be in a bad place.
Lmao, crocodiles have a hard time killing prey as they do not have the maneuverability to chase down a retreating animal. I have already told you that crocodiles do take cattle in australia on land. Yet the majority of animals will just retreat when confronted by a crocodile and when this happens the croc has little that it can do. Underrating the crocs bite makes u sound ignorant. You say a bear with blunt claws can inflict great damage on an armored animal, yet a bite of 5000lbs wont inflict great damage on a lesser protected and smaller bear.

No I am very confident. I made the topic because on another thread you bashed and greatly underrated crocodiles and I wanted to see if you ad any substance to your arguments. Win "us " over. Who is "us" You and big bons? Lmao I am not the only one who has supported the crocodile in this thread. Other posters have backed me. Where as you only have "big bons" lol. Who supports a bear over an 8000lb elephant seal. And then justifies his view with incorrect information.

Haha my rough statements? Lmao last time I checked I presented numerous ways for the crocodile to defeat and deter the bear. You on the other hand created some bull #*+! post about how a bear could flip a crocodile over and attack its weak spot, because it can flip over a stationary rock with numerous outputs of slow gradual energy. You also failed to explain how the bear would be aware of the crocodiles weak underbelly. So please frank tell me how a bear that has no experience with crocodiles would be able to realize that to kill it,it would need to flip it over. Lmao is this the prefered attack of bears on other animals. I might take your claim seriously if you could provide evidence or a logical post that would convince me that a grizzly would know to do this to a crocodile. Now since this ricululous claim has been shown up as false, I cannot see a way for a bear to effectively kill a large aggressive crocodile with the weapondry that it possesses. Sure the bear could kill one, but it would take a while, and it would most likely be either bitten or tailed struck before it gets the chance to inflict much damage. Nope still supporting the croc as strong as ever

Well "croc to strong" is far better than " bear instinctively knowing to flip over and hold 550kg croc" or "bear maul croc with blunt claws on crocs armor"


At average sizes {700 vs 1000} lbs the bear is in trouble and at max sizes{1500-2500lbs} the bear is toast.