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Wed, Aug 7, 2013 1:51 PM
Wed, Aug 7, 2013 2:05 PM
Wed, Aug 7, 2013 2:29 PM
pckts wrote:King, I know this is the wrong thread, but I found some more captive tiger weights you can add to your table.
"Tigger II: USDA Confiscation— Tigger II came from the “Tiger Ranch” facility in Alamosa, CO, where their owner walked off and abandoned 23 animals after realizing the expense and difficulty involved in caring for these animals. Siberian Tiger, Tigger II, is one of our larger tigers weighing over 850 lbs."
"Katy: USDA Confiscation—Katy is a Siberian Tiger, weighing 550 lbs. When just a tiny cub, she desperately needed a home, because the facility where she was born kept breeding animals even though they had no room for new ones. TWAS provided her that home and nicknamed her “Katydid,” as in “Katy did it!”
"Halloween : Houston SPCA and USDA Confiscation—As a result of new laws against owning Tigers as “pets”—Texas breeders began to abandon their animals because they could no longer make money from them. Siberian Tiger, Halloween, was rescued from that dismal existence of living in concrete and steel cages. He is very friendly and very sweet now, and Halloween takes the prize of being the Sanctuary’s largest cat at 850 lbs!"http://www.wildanimalsanctuary.org/animalstories/tigers.html
They have many lions at the sanctuary as well but no weights are given. Maybe you would want to email them if you are curious enough, for your table. http://www.wildanimalsanctuary.org/animalstories/africanlions.html
Wed, Aug 7, 2013 6:32 PM
Thu, Aug 8, 2013 1:04 AM
the skull which at 390mm would have been very huge for a Bengal tiger
the Rowland Ward records (for skulls) still look relatively reputable IMO barring some exceptions like the Mackenzie skull.
Thu, Aug 8, 2013 10:04 AM
Thu, Aug 8, 2013 11:16 AM
Thu, Aug 8, 2013 12:58 PM
Fri, Aug 16, 2013 2:37 AM
Mon, Aug 19, 2013 2:38 PM
Just a few quick answers:
I don’t know if the “shoulder height” from the lions
of Rogers (1974) are standing height of not. I just infer that they are, as all
of them seem reliable and reasonable for the length of the lions (based in
other East African lions).
You are right, De Almeida (1990) don’t mentioned
if those lions were adults or not, he just said “males”, however I doubt that
at 80’s decade someone could mix sub-adults with adults. In the worst case, the
155 kg correspond to specimens over 3 years old, and as we know that this is
the age of sexual maturity of
lions-tigers, I think the figure is reliable.
About Schaller, I think that De Almeida used
the few weights reported for Schaller and average all of them for that
statement, but these are form different areas, not only from the Serengeti.
Schaller stated that an average male in that area should weight 170 kg on
average, and 120 kg for a female, these are the correct estimated figures.
Finally, on the tiger skulls, specimens over
380 cm in Bengal tigers are not exceptional, in fact, even when Mazák don’t found
skulls over that size in Europe, he never measured skulls in the Indian Museums. I have a
list of first hand records and there are several between 380-400 cm, which are
larger than the largest tiger skulls measured by Mazák for the Amur subspecies.
I have not posted in all these days because I
have a lot of work, but I will return soon. Greetings to all.
Mon, Aug 19, 2013 4:32 PM
Kingtheropod wrote:Lion weighed Tsavo (Peter Hathaway Capstick)This is the weight of one of the lions refered to by Capstick. This male was a maneater in low condition, it had porcupine quills likely being the reason it went man eater. The lion weighed in at 380 pounds.http://books.google.ca/books?id=QwLqP0cjh3QC&pg=PA38&dq=capstick+lion+weighed+380&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ackNUuqbLMS52QXquoHICA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=capstick%20lion%20weighed%20380&f=false
In one of Capsticks other books, 'The last Ivory Hunter', he mentions one hunter named Fred Bear which killed a lion 456 pounds! This lion was described as huge and above average. He didn't say were that one came from though.
Mon, Sep 2, 2013 12:51 PM
Mon, Sep 2, 2013 2:46 PM
Wed, Sep 4, 2013 6:25 PM
Thu, Sep 12, 2013 3:06 PM
Thu, Sep 12, 2013 9:48 PM
Wed, Nov 13, 2013 3:52 AM
I think this is the
perfect place to present my analysis on the evolution of the lion, based in the
last document (2013) of Dr. J. M. Dubach and his team. This is the link for the original document: http://apcro.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Dubach-et-al-2013-ConGen.pdf
Officially, there are
only two main groups of lions, the sub-Saharan African lions (P. leo leo) and the Asian-Barbary lions
(P. leo persica). However, Dubach et al. (2013), which summarize all previous
genetic studies plus the one of they own, offer us a more complicated scenario
with different taxonomy:
There are two main
groups in Africa, those from the East and those from the Southern part of the
continent. However, there are some populations that are more genetically closer
with different areas, like that of Tsavo which is closer to the South African
lions. This suggests that there existed re-colonizations through the lion
evolutionary history. At the end, this Sub-Saharan African genetic group (East
and Southern Africa) is classified as Panthera
leo melanochaita, this is because the name “melanochaita” is the oldest for this group (based in a specimen
from the Cape, South Africa) and according with the laws of taxonomy this
should be the correct one. By the way, Dubach shows that the genetic of the
Ethiopian lions is closer to the East African lions, so they must be classified
with them and not with the Asian lions, which apparently, never reached that
About the Asian
group, the genetic evidence proves that Barbary lions and Asian lions are UNDISTINGUISABLE, and belong to the
same group, so the names “leo” and “persica” are related with the same
dichotomy of animals. Beyond this, the lions in West and Central Africa are
believe to descent of Asian animals, that enter in a second invasion wave that
gives origin to Barbary lions and all the populations that are neighbors of the
Atlantic ocean. According with the laws of Taxonomy, the oldest name for this
group is “leo”, which is based in a
specimen from Barbary, so all the this lions are named as Panthera leo leo.
Finally, the highly
inbreed population of India, which count with only c.400 specimens is
classified as Panthera leo persica,
this is because they status of Highly endangered, not because there is some
genetic differences. However, the document of Dubach was published only in
February of 2013, before the publication of the excellent book of Dr Valmik
Thapar (April, 2013). So, at the light of the new evidence, the Indian lion Per
Se, should not be classified as a distinct subspecies, however, it is
interesting that the genetic evidence shows a clear link between them and the
Barbary lions and not with those from Botswana. This suggest that the surviving
lions from Gir are those descendent from the Persian lions transported by
Alexander the great and the Mughal (which are the original group of lions that re-invaded
the north and west of Africa), while those lions exported from Botswana and
other parts of Africa simple disappeared and are no longer existing in the Gir
pride. In this clear case of “were they came” issue, the Gir lions are no other
than Panthera leo leo, but for
conservation issues, they are classified as P.
In this case, the
taxonomic classification of the modern lion is this:
* Sub-Saharan African
lion: Panthera leo melanochaita (two clades: East Africa and Southern Africa)
African and Asian lion: Panthera leo leo (one single genetic group).
* Asian lions in Gir:
Panthera leo persica (for conservation purposes only).
Wed, Nov 13, 2013 4:40 PM
Wed, Nov 13, 2013 4:50 PM
In fact, following the study of Dubach et al. (2013), the correct classification
for all African lions (down the Saharan desert) should be Panthera leo melanochaita. However, as many people, web-pages and
even Wikipedia, simple “ignore” this facts, it will be good if you put a note
in your tables, clarifying that you are following the taxonomic classification of
Dubach et al. (2013), based in modern
Wed, Nov 13, 2013 4:51 PM
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