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Mon, Jan 30, 2012 8:16 AM
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Sat, Mar 1, 2014 4:32 PM
I know what Tiger fans are gonna do, they're gonna compare the lions with their stupid tiger gods in kaziranga so refrain from doing so because LvT trash belongs to the LvT section (Intelligent people are expected to not require a mod to understand these words), I'm posting this as a Lion fan not comparing this unique panther to any other animal.
Sun, Mar 2, 2014 2:12 AM
Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:30 PM
A long time ago a strange creature appeared in China and horrified and ate men and animals. The fast and fierce creature was called 'nien' (or 'nian'), which sounds like the Chinese word for 'year'. Neither the fox nor the tiger could fight the 'nien' effectively and in despair the people asked the lion for help.
Mon, Mar 3, 2014 12:43 PM
Asad wrote:Tsavo East are large in size and appear to have wider skull. The West Tsavo (higher elevation) lions are larger in size and posses the typical large dark
mane while others scanty mane. I would presume the Atlas lion residing at higher elevation would
be of similar stature to East Tsavo lions.
Mon, Mar 3, 2014 3:00 PM
Mon, Mar 3, 2014 4:07 PM
pckts wrote:According to the recent article on Atlas lions, they are only around 140kg on average. They are actually smaller than most other lion sub species and are closely related to Barbary Lions. Would definitely have to go with the larger lion here, as well as the fact that these lions hunt larger prey than most other lions as well.
from historical sightings are relevant to current lion conservation. We
suggest that wild lions persisted in the Maghreb into the 1950s, much
later than previously recognized. The lion is a well-known, visible and
potentially threatening species, yet small populations survived in North
Africa decades after being generally considered extinct. This
persistence reflects the recent rediscovery of a small population of
Barbary leopard nearly 20 years after the last previous sighting and a
decade since being declared extinct  .
Careful consideration should be given to mammalian carnivores currently
presumed extinct or near-extinct in other regions, coupled with a
greater understanding of extinction patterns and the conservation
potential in relict populations.
we suggest caution when considering the current conservation status of
lions. Although lions in the Maghreb adapted to reduced population
density, prey availability and habitat encroachment, our analysis
reveals that lion group-living behavior did not change significantly as
human pressures increased. As a pride-forming species , P. leo
populations are prone to collapse, whereas other felids may survive at
lower local population densities by not living in social groups . Lions in today’s small populations in Central and West Africa persist  ,
even if rarely seen, in fragmented remnants, yet clearly exist at the
edge of a precipitous drop into extinction. Continued, carefully
considered conservation effort remains vitally important.
If the lion is the King of the Beasts then the Barbary Lion was the
King of Kings. A full-grown male Barbary lion is larger than the more
common Sub-Saharan Lion, and can weigh over 600 pounds (272 kg)...
Although the Barbary Lion has been classified as extinct since the
1920�s, a handful of lions in captivity around the world that are
descended from the original Barbary are being studied for possible
breeding and reintroduction.
Mon, Mar 3, 2014 4:38 PM
Mon, Mar 3, 2014 5:24 PM
Tue, Mar 4, 2014 9:43 AM
Tue, Mar 4, 2014 1:52 PM
Asad wrote:pkts the lions you are posting of are not Atlas lions, dog of hell may be right your a certified fake professor. If you find this hard to believe email Prof, Dr. Klaus Eulenberger with a polite email and ask him if they are same.The manes develope in the belly region from higher elevation cooler climates, Atlas lions, South African Cape town lions, neither related to the Addis lions (persian lions are closer to Atlas lions) which share the same trait yet opposite sides of the continent, valiant effort on your part. The two lions posted with weights of 250 kg, and 312 kg were healthy examples, not dwarf lions.
Tue, Mar 4, 2014 3:25 PM
pckts wrote:Asad wrote:pkts the lions you are posting of are not Atlas lions, dog of hell may be right your a certified fake professor. If you find this hard to believe email Prof, Dr. Klaus Eulenberger with a polite email and ask him if they are same.The manes develope in the belly region from higher elevation cooler climates, Atlas lions, South African Cape town lions, neither related to the Addis lions (persian lions are closer to Atlas lions) which share the same trait yet opposite sides of the continent, valiant effort on your part. The two lions posted with weights of 250 kg, and 312 kg were healthy examples, not dwarf lions.What was that, LIAR???Trainer Joe
Clavall aka “Tarzan” subdues one of his twelve Atlas lions and lionesses
whilst rehearsing for a show by Jack Hylton's circus at Earl's Court in
...http://avaxnews.net/appealing/Vintage_Animals_Oldies.htmlGood ole Asad. Never ceases to be wrong
Tue, Mar 4, 2014 5:11 PM
The idiot of Asad and his/her lies. Barbary
lions were NO LARGER than the average East African lions (stated by Dr. Mazák
and Dr. Patterson), in fact even its skulls didn’t surpassed the 420 cm.
Yamaguchi DON’T BELIEVE in those weights of 270 kg. You what the TRUTH, check
this topic: http://animalbattle.yuku.com/topic/55/The-size-of-the-Barbary-lion#.UxZAHIX4JXY
Final TRUTH: Using the little reliable information available, the
Barbary lion (female and male) had a head-body length of 160-190 cm, a shoulder
height of 80-100 cm and a greatest skull length with an average of 372.3 mm in
males and 318.3 mm in females. These sizes are about the same than those of
Indian and West Africa, with the exception of the relative larger skulls.
With the weight issue, judging by its body size and skull dimensions,
Barbary lions probably weighed up to 200 kg (and much less in average, probably
between 160-170 kg) although there is the possibility of some exceptional
specimens of probably up to 230 kg like the East African lions, or even 250 kg
like the Southern African lions, but this last figure will be probably just an
exaggeration in the northern areas of Africa. There is only a single report of
Gérard of males up to 270-300 kg, but these are simple estimations and are
completely unreliable, even Yamaguchi accept this.
The idea of its large size came from the large mane, but there are
several captive Indian lions with heavy manes that weight less than 160 kg.
There are several large lions with heavy manes in private facilities available
in the web and the hard-core-lion-fans proclaim without any evidence that they
are “Barbary”, but the truth is that none
of them is pure Barbary or from any other population. Besides, any captive lion in cold climate can
develop a large mane, so the mane is the
worst factor to detect a Barbary lion.
is the link of the TRUE data: http://animalbattle.yuku.com/topic/55/The-size-of-the-Barbary-lion#.UxZAHIX4JXY
You what to
ignore it? Ok, you will only show your ignorance.
DNA, Barnett, Bertola, Bruche and Dubach had stated that Barbary lions and
Indian lions are practically UNDISTIGUISABLE. Check what says Dr Packer, TOP
expert of lions:
need more??? Go away Asad the liar!!!
By the way,
Asad, stop insulting the REAL Science with you idiotic brain. You are just a
fraud and a stupid poster that only copy-paste random information from the internet.
By the way, WHICH ARE YOUR CREDENTIALS??? WHICH IS YOUR EDUCATION LEVEL??? I
have asked you several times this but you have avoid it, maybe because you are
just a TROLL in your real life that try to have something with meaning in your
Tue, Mar 4, 2014 5:14 PM
By the way, PCKTS, ask to
Asad-the-idiot where is the DNA of its suppose and greatly overestimated
captive 300 kg lions???
Wed, Mar 5, 2014 12:15 PM
Wed, Mar 5, 2014 1:09 PM
chaos wrote:There's conflicting info on the barbary's size. Some claim it was the largest subspecies, others different . Not sure if its the same as the Atlas lion or the Asian for that matter.
I'll leave that to those in the know.
to the late 1800s, hunters reported lions traversing from northwest
Algeria, westwards into Morocco and from northeastern Algeria eastwards
into Tunisia .
After the 1880s, the pattern of sightings suggest that lion populations
retreated broadly in two directions; in Morocco southwards away from
coastal regions through the Rif, Middle and High Atlas Mountains and the
Saharan fringes; and in Algeria eastwards into the Tell Atlas and the
Aurès Mountains bordering Tunisia. In both regions small populations
survived at low densities in remote areas for several generations.
Literature and oral accounts suggest that lions persisted through
certain behavioral adaptations (hunting domestic livestock, engaging in
nocturnal activity, living in small groups or pairs) and shifts in range
(leaving deforested localities, moving to outlying areas and higher
altitudes, and following water points in arid regions). Many of these
particular behavioral adaptations have since been observed in
contemporary populations of lions in human-dominated landscapes in
sub-Saharan Africa ,  as well as in restricted available habitat in India .
Few would contradict the view that the lion (Panthera leo) has made a
deeper impression on the human imagination than has any other
animal......It is, however, doubtful whether captive Barbary lions,
usually captured as cubs and kept in menageries during the 18th or 19th
centuries, attained the full body size. Cuvier himself referred to
undesirable captive conditions at the menagerie (Geoffroy-Saint-Hilaire
and Cuvier, 1824). Cornish (1899) reported that big cats only lived, on
an average, for two years in London Zoo in the mid-1800s. Gérard (1856)
also expressed his concern about the captive condition of lions at the
Jardin des Plantes. On the other hand, he described a big wild
Barbary lion he shot with the comment `This lion, compared to the finest
of those which are exhibited in our menageries, or at the Jardin des
Plantes, was what a horse is to a donkey. .Gérard (1856)
described the size of wild male Barbary lions as c. 2.3 m from the tip
of the nose to the root of the tail, which measured c. 90 cm, and their
weight as c. 270–300 kg. If this had been true, Barbary
lions would indeed have been big amongst lions. However, the methods of
obtaining these measurements (e.g. straight or along the curve) were
not specified, and the accuracy of the measurements themselves may be
questionable, as Gérard made them in the field. Although Pease (1899,
1915) suggested that North African lions might have become very heavy
because they fed on mutton so much,..Furthermore, many Barbary
lions were killed in North Africa even towards the end of the 19th
century (Pease, 1899, 1915), by which time some big natural history
museums were well established. Therefore, it is possible that
skulls of those lions, both captive and wild, have ended up in private
collections and museums in Europe, providing a large amount of study
materials of Barbary lions. Nevertheless, currently fewer than ten adult
skulls (males and females combined) are known. The largest Barbary lion
skull so far measured, which is partly broken, has an estimated
greatest length of c. 360 mm (Mazák, 1970; Yamaguchi,
unpublished). Although 360 mm is not small, big skulls of sub-Saharan
lions easily reach a maximum length of over 380 mm, and some even over
400 mm (Hemmer, 1974; Best, 1981; Yamaguchi, unpublished). Does
this mean Barbary lions were not particularly big? Due to such a small
sample size, we have to wait until more specimens may become available.
The big lion Gérard shot in Algeria was presented to the Duchess of
Orléans (Gérard, 1856), but the current whereabouts of this specimen and
other wild-shot Barbary lions which decorated Gérard's Paris residence
are not known. ).. scientifically demonstrated that there is indeed a strong positive correlation between mane size and cooler temperature.Therefore,
it is likely that, in their Atlas habitat, male Barbary lions developed
bigger manes than any extant lions in the wild. However, things are not
so straightforward in captivity...Furthermore, it is suggested
that the colour and size of a lion's mane are influenced by other
factors, such as nutrition and physiological stress (West and Packer,
2002).. It is reported that, in good modern captive conditions, lions
always develop bigger skulls compared to wild ones of the same age
(Smuts et al., 1978). Also, as we discussed above, it may
not be realistic in the first place to assess the size of the Barbary
lion from such a small number of materials. Furthermore,
Hollister (1918), while studying the differences in muscle and bone
development between wild and captive lions by examining specimens of the
same origins and similar ages, suggests that a straightforward
comparison of skulls between wild and captive animals, or between
animals of different captive conditions, needs an extra caution.....It
seems obvious that large mammals like lions can travel a huge distance,
making possible a gene flow between two widely separated populations...
A lion-like pantherine felid is described as Panthera (Leo) fossilis (von Reichenau, 1906) from the late Early Pleistocene sediments of the Kuznezk Basin (Western Siberia, Russia). The find of P. fossilis
first recorded in Asia considerably extends current notion of the
eastward expansion of the most ancient lions. The Siberian lion is
geologically the oldest form and is dimensionally among the largest
members of the group of fossil lions on the Eurasian continent. Although
known by mandibular remains only, it is readily distinguished from Panthera (Leo) spelaea
(Goldfuss, 1810) by a heavy built mandibular corpus with rectangular
profile in the cheek teeth area, a deep, well-outlined and narrow
anterior section of the masseteric fossa, and a large р4 supported by a
big unreduced anterior root. These features the Siberian lion shares
with the European Middle Pleistocene P. fossilis and American Late Pleistocene P. (Leo) atrox (Leidy, 1853), which suggests their close relationship. P. atrox originated from P. fossilis
and was isolated in North America south of the Late Pleistocene ice
sheets. This explains why the American lion has retained more primitive
features than the coeval Eurasian cave lion P. (L.) spelaea.
Wed, Mar 5, 2014 3:22 PM
Wed, Mar 5, 2014 4:36 PM
pckts wrote:And once again, not a single verified weight given. More cherry picked images and random out of context sentences.
So the FACTS show, the Barbary/Atlas lion is not a large sub species. It's closest relative the addis lion is averaged around 140kg-150kg
The pictures shown of actual atlas lions look to be small and not overly impressive.
I like how you CHERRY PICK only large maned lions to make them look larger, but large maned lions can be any sub species. As it is proven FACT that the lions mane is directly affected by climate!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wed, Mar 5, 2014 4:42 PM
pckts wrote:. It's closest relative the addis lion is averaged around 140kg-150kg
I like how you CHERRY PICK only large maned lions to make them look larger, but large maned lions can be any sub species. As it is proven FACT that the lions mane is directly affected by climate!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wed, Mar 5, 2014 4:55 PM
this fascinating. Asad quotes a document that state that the lions of the Rabat
Zoo, the ONLY more or less PURE Barbary lions found at this day, are NOT 100%
pure (maternal lineage came from Central Africa)!!!
these lions are not 100% pure, who he can state that the other lions from
Catales state or other northern Zoos are pure??? There is not a single DNA analysis
that states that those lions are pure Barbary, only the big mane, which is
correlated with CLIMATE. Read the book “The lions of Tsavo” of Dr Bruce
Patterson before make stupid statements, Asad.
study of Dr Dubach, which presents the largest database on lion DNA, shows that
lions from Ethiopia are NOT unique after all, and are better fit with those from
the East Africa region. Lions of West Africa are closer related with Barbary
lions (together with those of India) and these also weight ONLY 160 KG ON
this link Asad-Idiot: http://animalbattle.yuku.com/topic/55/The-size-of-the-Barbary-lion#.UxeQVIXDWys
present the evidence to say that both Indian and West African lions, the
genetic twins of the Barbary lion, average only 160 kg in males. So is OBIVOUS
that the true wild Barbary lions weighed the same or maybe slightly more.
Asad say: “The closest relative the Panthera leo Europa
died out long time ago, a slight correlation with Persian lions have been noted
from the skull similarity but wrong continent.”
you get this lie? There has been not found ANY lion skull from the Holocene lions
in Europe, so who can anyone compare an inexistent skull with those from
Persia??? Don’t you get tired of lie,
think that showing RANDOM pictures of captive lions from northern zoos-circus
will prove that they are Barbary??? Where are the DNA test of all of them
inherent fantasy that you share (Barbary lions are bigger) is dismissed by true
Science (no pure Barbary lion exist in
zoos), logic (lions mane are the
worst way the identified lion subspecies), reasonable aptitude (you always lie and never offer true
scientific sources), altitude & geography (mane change depends of climate, not subspecies), availability of
prey (Barbary regions had the smaller
prey for lions in all its range), etc. That is as clear as I can paint the
picture for you, Asad-idiot.
ask again: WHICH ARE YOUR CREDENTIALS??? WHICH IS YOUR EDUCATION LEVEL??? You
say that all of us are just teens, well, which is you age, “old” man/woman???
Wed, Mar 5, 2014 5:00 PM
Sundarbans tigers, check this out:
Sunderbans tiger count steady, but prey base not enough
there is euphoria over a minimum 103 tigers in the Sunderbans, a new study
shows the prey abundance is supporting not more than 30 big cats in the
foresters have pegged a presence of at least 13,000 spotted deer, considered a
hoofed prey for tiger, experts feel this can at the most sustain a population
of only 26 tigers. Though experts said there was no doubt about the tiger
number since there's photographic evidence for each big cat, they sounded alarm
over the prey count as it may not be enough for the tigers.
found 12,000 adult deer, 1,200 young ones and more than 2,000 wild boars, both
young and adult, in the tiger reserve area. This is pretty good for the
mangroves and is sufficient for 100 tigers or even more," said field
director of Sunderbans Tiger Reserve (STR) Soumitra Dasgupta.
eminent conservation zoologist Ullas Karanth, who had conducted a study on the
big cats' prey base across 11 different tiger habitats in the country between
1994 and 2004, said a full-grown tiger needs 50 hoofed prey, like deer, every
year to survive. "And, a herd of 500 deer is required to provide a
sustainable outcome of 50 deer per tiger. Though there is no proper methodology
of estimating the density of prey animals in a terrain like the Sunderbans,
13,000 deer can support a population of only 26 tigers," he said, adding
that his study on predicting carnivore densities from prey abundance had appeared
in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of
America (PNAS) in 2004.
chief wildlife warden Ujjwal Bhattacharya said that not only deer and wild
boar, tigers in the mangroves also feed on other animals like water monitor
lizards, rhesus monkeys and even crabs. "We have also found 16,000 adult
rhesus monkeys and 250 young ones apart from more than 1,600 water monitor
lizards," Dasgupta said. Considering Karanth's methodology and taking into
account the total estimation of all prey species - 33,000 - only 66 big cats
can survive on this prey base in the tiger reserve area. Bhattacharya said the
state would soon start a study on the status of prey animals in the mangroves
with funds from the Japan International Cooperation Agency (JICA). This,
according to him, will give a clear picture.
Karanth's views, Wildlife Protection Society of India's Belinda Wright said:
"It is unlikely that the Sunderbans will have a high density of tigers
since it doesn't have the prey species to support the number."
Bangladesh-based tiger expert Monirul H Khan had earlier said that there was
always a natural balance between the prey and number of tigers. "And 500
deer can provide sufficient food base to only one tiger, keeping in mind the
fact that the breeding rate of deer is always balanced by the killing rate of
tigers," he had said earlier.
study in the mangroves was conducted a couple of months back covering an area
of more than 80 square kms. Dasgupta said river transects were carried out for
a total creek length of 137 kms. Later, the data was extrapolated to find out
the prey abundance in the entire 1680 sq kms in the Sunderbans Tiger Reserve.
STR is spread over 2,580 sq kms, of which 35% is water. An expert said
extrapolation may not always give a reliable data for the Sunderbans as
salinity, which decides the vegetation here, differs from place to place.
trap study last year had predicted a minimum of 103 tigers in the mangroves,
including 81 in the tiger reserve area and 22 in the South 24-Parganas forest
This news is more important than you think. Park rangers (and
hard-core-lion-fans) spread the myth that the Sundarbans is the are with the
higher tiger population in the world. However, since some years ago, Dr Karanth
allready proved that this area had some of the lower prey base and using camera
traping, he found that the density of Sundarbans tigers is just like that of
Russia!!! Apart from this, we most take in count that the prey base in the
mangroves is not only low, but the larger prey is the Chital deer (in
Sundarbans, this deer weighs only 50 kg, contrary to the 90 kg in mainland
Sundarbans tigers are NOT living in a paradise. These tigers are living
in the edge, with low prey base, small game and surrounded by a growing
human population. These are some of the reasons why these tigers are weighing
so low (c.100 kg males and c.80 kg females). By the way, ALL the tigers
radio-collared in this area were in low to bad conditions.
it is, the Sundarbans tigers is almoust a sick population, struggling to
survive in a very poor habitat. All radiocollared Sundarbans tigers were sick
and in bad conditions.
going to ignore this Asad-idiot???
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