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Tue, Jun 18, 2013 8:32 AM
Deinotherium wrote:Excellent stuff Prathap! Which book is all that from?
Tue, Jun 18, 2013 11:48 AM
prathap wrote:Deinotherium wrote:Excellent stuff Prathap! Which book is all that from?Gir Forest and the Saga of the Asiatic Lion by Sudipta Mitra
Tue, Jun 18, 2013 4:16 PM
peter wrote:prathap wrote:Deinotherium wrote:Excellent stuff Prathap! Which book is all that from?Gir Forest and the Saga of the Asiatic Lion by Sudipta MitraVery nice and thanks, Prathap.
Thu, Jun 20, 2013 3:04 PM
The modern male lions from
India are believed to have an average of 175 kg (not including the males
reported by SpiritLion), based in only two males of 160 and 190 kg
The original sample was of four, but only two (the upper and lower figures) are known, thanks to Nowell & Jackson (1996), here is the
However, I have discovered
that all the lions captured by scientists in India were BAITED! Yes, check this
So, they weights are inflated,
probably with 20-30 kg, like the same source suggest.
In order to get more data, the
following source state that the food intake of captive lions and leopards (in
India) is about 5-10% of the weight, check this:
So, this suggests that the
real weights of these Indian males (in the best
case) were, in fact, of 148 kg (between 144-152 kg) for the smaller one and of
176 kg (between 171-180.5 kg) for the largest one, making a real average of
c.162 kg, which is close to the captive ones (average of 163.7 kg [n=22], range
140-180 kg [Sontakke et al., 2009]).
This other source claims that
an adult Indian male lion can eat up to 50 kg in one meal:
This record surpass the top
food intake of Indian tigers (35 kg; McDougal, 1977), Amur tigers (40 kg;
Baikov, 1925), East African lions (33 kg; Schaller, 1972) and South African
lions (35 kg; Apps, 2000). Check that this show that even this small lions have
larger food intakes than other larger lions, so the hypothesis of Bold that
size is totally related with food intake is completely INCORRECT. However, at difference than the hard-core
lion fans, I don’t propose to use the maximum food intake to correct a baited
animal, after all, these animals normally don’t eat they full meal and are
disturbed. So a possible intake of 8-19 kg is more reliable to adjust the male
On the old records, only ONE
survived and it suggests that the Indian lions were, in the past, of the same
weight than the heaviest African lions. I was preparing a new topic about the
size of the Indian lions, but this new topic (Asian lion origin) was more
relevant, after all, Peter has already show the length measurements and all
show that the Indian lions are smaller than the African ones. On the weight, the
old data shows that the heaviest lion hunted in India was of 255 kg! (Not 306 kg, like is incorrectly
mentioned by the book of Guinness).
Check the image:
This is the correct
translation of the size and weight. These dimensions are about the same than
the largest African lions in record.
record is from the year 1623. Bernier said that Mughals were very careful in
the recording of the figures, so it is believed that the figure is “reliable”.
However, is necessary to mention that IF we believe in records from 1623 form
the old India, why we can’t believe in records of 1920-1940 from the Old
Russian tigers? Just a thought.
total length of 285 cm, I think is safe to conclude that the size was probably
taken over curves, as the “between pegs” method was invented between 1880-1890
(Sterndale, 1884; Cooch Behar, 1908). But this don’t means that the lion was
very short, after all, it seems that Indian lions had shorter tails in relation
to its length, compared with the African lions.
we have only one weight of 1623, which is of 255 kg. Next we have one at 1835
of 222 kg excluding its organs; this means that the real weight was probably
the same that the first male (c.240-250 kg). Latter, just until 1985-1990, we
have the other four males of 160-190 kg (148-176 kg empty belly). So, we have a
similar case like the Amur tiger, that weighed more in the past, but now they
suffer a drop on the body mass, caused by the large inbreeding (captive
origin?) and the poor prey base (most chital deer and feral cattle).
Thu, Jun 20, 2013 3:40 PM
Fri, Jun 21, 2013 2:38 AM
In fact, you are right pckts. Let’s see the facts
with the old records:
1. The record of the large lion (255 kg) is
probably the oldest record of any large cat in history (1623), and we most
relay completely in the Mughals accuracy, which obviously don’t had the exact instruments
that were used at the year 1800, not to say 1900 and beyond; at least Bernier
believed that they records were reliable and accurate. The problem with it is
that it was first converted at 306 kg with an incorrect conversion, but now the
new data show that the weight was much less. New studies could show smaller
figures in the future, but for the moment, the weight of 255 kg and the length of
285 cm (probably “over curves”) is all what we have. It is also important to mention that there is no evidence about the state of the lion (full of beef or empty belly).
Just a final note, check that this lion was
hunted between Delhi and Agra, in the west of India. These are the dryer areas
just before the Great Indian Desert of the far west.
2. Now, about the large male of 222.3 kg
reported by Smee (1833), this figure seems reliable, at least, he described
very well the specimen and all its measurements, here is the original source:
It is 100% sure that these total length were
taken “over curves”, after all, this was the method used in those days.
I think that this last one is reliable. Taking
in count that the viscera of a large tiger can weigh between 17-20 kg, I hypothesize
that this large male lion probably weighed c. 241 kg (range 239-242 kg) “complete”.
This is about the same than the heaviest African lion in modern scientific
Fri, Jun 21, 2013 6:45 PM
From over 9 years that I have been collecting pictures
of big cats in the web, these 9 are all the images of hunted Indian lions that
I have found, courtesy of several posters and webpages:
Interestingly, all the specimens are relatively
small, except for the third and fifth males, which look very large (or the person
in the picture is very small?). Like the hunting records, is like I have found
1 image for each year!
Here are the pictures of a stuffed Indian lion
in the American Museum of Natural History:
This doesn’t mean that this are all the pictures
available, but is a suspicion that there is so little data about the hunted “wild”
lions in India.
If someone has more pictures of hunted Indian
lions, fell free to put it here.
I will return with the DNA studies.
Fri, Jun 21, 2013 8:22 PM
Mon, Jun 24, 2013 11:55 PM
Tue, Jun 25, 2013 12:18 AM
Tue, Jun 25, 2013 12:21 AM
HIMALAYAN LION wrote:Valmiki Thapur is now officially the new Keshri Singh,lol.
Coming back to the topic,the national emblem of India i.e.,the Ashoka Sthamba was created almost few hundred years before Jesus Christ was born,by the mighty monarch King Ashoka of India.
And Ashoka Sthamb= Four LIONS sitting against each other.lol.
Just look at this link for more information:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_Capital_of_Asoka
Anyway,who cares from where the Aryans came,and where the Sanskrit language originated.Fact of the matter is:
1.All Vedic/Post Vedic literature was complied on the Indian Soil.
2.All these great ancient books(especially Ramayaa and Mahabharata) describe tigers in great detail.And mention that there is no fierce predator like the tiger.
3.Unfortunately for all those trying to re-write history,all these ancient INDIAN books also mention heavily about the lions and all of them term LIONS as the king of beasts and a more powerful creature than the mighty tiger.
4.Even way before the Mughals came,the RAJPUTS of North India used the title LION(SINGH) with their name.
If anything,tiger fans should stay out of history of India,cause it heavily favours the king of the beasts.
PS: The last lion of Bihar(mow Jharkhand) was shot in Palamu TRiger Reserve around the late 1890s.That place still has over twenty tigers and is very close from where I live.
The tigers couldn't kill off these lions till late 1890s,AND THESE LIONS only became extinct after the arrival of firearms?
There is old saying in our society,"even a tiger runs when a lion arrives."
No other beast has been hailed,respected and has touched Indian art/culture/religion right from the very ancient times till day like the LION.
//This is how it's,despite some people's biased and revisionist attitude/mindset.
Tue, Jun 25, 2013 1:23 AM
Tue, Jun 25, 2013 6:28 AM
Wed, Jun 26, 2013 4:01 AM
BrotherBear wrote:I hope that this is not too off subject. When did lions first appear in Africa?
I remember that the modern lion (Panthera leo) evolved in Africa about
750,000 years ago in East Africa, although the first ancestors of the modern
and the Eurasian cave lion evolved about 2 million years ago (also in East Africa),
but check that I am just quoting from memory, so I am not very sure of the
dates. At this moment, I don’t have the data at hand (I am in another
computer), but I will put it here to you tomorrow in the night.
Sat, Jun 29, 2013 1:29 AM
Sat, Jun 29, 2013 2:21 AM
Contrary to the absurd comments of Himalyan-lion
on Valmik Thapar, the book is NOT a tiger-fan collection of lies. This is a
very well studied document that has found new evidence that it seems that no
one has saw before (or at least, interpreted in this way). They read the same
documents that all the previous investigators have read and even more!
For example, there is some interesting point
that even I have not saw: Mitra and Nusinh mentioned that the lion probably
enter to India about 40,000 years ago and I believed this before, however, they
don’t provide a direct fossil evidence of this event, nor even a reference. In
fact, the only document about fossil cats in India (Lydekker (1886), according with Mazák (1981)) ONLY
mentions fossil tigers of less than 12,000 years ago, in other words, in the
Holocene period after the last ice age; there is no mention of any fossil lion,
apart from the few supposes lion teeth from Sri Lanka.
I don’t know guys, but when I gone deeper in
the investigation, I found that Thappar is more correct than I previously believed.
I most buy his book!!!
By the way, I found information about the myth
of the Himalayan lion and it is ONLY a misconception of the Snow leopard,
thanks to the “invasion” of the Buddhist religion, nothing more.
Sorry for the delay in the documents of the DNA
of Asian lions, but I have been working in a new paper on the Ngandong tiger.
Sat, Jun 29, 2013 2:52 AM
Sat, Jun 29, 2013 4:11 AM
Sat, Jun 29, 2013 4:59 AM
Deinotherium wrote:I received the book yesterday. Will start reading tonight,
Sun, Jun 30, 2013 4:15 AM
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